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Post by billsamuels on Nov 16, 2020 16:36:47 GMT
Hi Guys,
In the summer of 1969 (at the grand old age of 15!!!) I went off with a Transit minibus full of lads on a tour to Paris and the Paris Air Show. Sadly I’ve lost contact with all of the guys who were on the trip but I have lots of queries from some of the many Paris (and surrounding) areas.
So without going into too greater detail, did any of our more mature members do a similar trip?
Cheers guys.
Bill
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Post by howardlgw on Nov 16, 2020 20:11:58 GMT
Bill post some queries, with the lockdown and cloudy skies, it will give some members a chance to do a bit of detective work, if you don't ask you don't get.
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Post by billsamuels on Nov 16, 2020 21:23:57 GMT
Hi Howard,
Well there are quite a few!!
I’ll go through the trip in date order, but I may not get to the end in this post...
Le Bourget 31.05.1969. (Total logged 66).
F-ZWWR (no idea of type) but suspect it was part of the exhibits.
Le Bourget 01.06.1969 - this was our day inside the air show. (Total logged 143 logged).
D-HVFW VFW-H-5 (no trace in database)
155095 Huey Cobra US Army (incorrect serial)
23226 Galeb (c/n 667) Yugoslav AF (no trace in DB)
24328 Jastreb (c/n 666 Yugoslav AF (ditto)
F-WLIM (no idea of type)
Meaux 02.06.1969. (Total logged 61).
F-BIHR Emeraude (misspole)
F-BISK Emeraude (ditto)
F-BFDU (ditto)
Coulommiers 02.06.1969. (Total logged 23).
F-BOXZ Bolkow 208c (misspole)
F-WOIU (no idea of type)
Nagis 02.06.1969. (Total logged 37).
F-BLBY Rallye (misspole)
Melun 02.06.1969. (Total logged 5).
KA+20 Transall West German AF (no trace of serial)
F-WPXA Nord 262 (need c/n)
Bretigny 02.06.1969. (Total logged 17).
44-34 B26 (no other details)
Plessis-Belleville 03.06.1969. (Total logged 44).
F-BCMX MS-50S (misspole)
F-BGUC MB.100 (ditto)
F-BGUD MB.100 (ditto)
F-BGVI MB.120 (ditto)
Creil 03.06.1969. (Total logged 14).
F-BMJQ B-26 (misspole)
Beauvais 03.06.1969. (Total logged 16).
F-BOOP Super Cub (misspole)
F-BJZN Ce 172 (ditto)
Persan-Beaumont 03.06.1969. (Total logged 41).
F-BGLG Brochet (misspole)
F-BABH Stampe (ditto)
Moisselles 03.06.1969. (Total logged 33).
F-BBAZ (misspole)
Pontois 04.06.1969. (Total logged 31).
F-BKJU Jodel (misspole)
F-BEAN Deiperdussin (ditto)
Les Mereaux 04.06.1969. (Total logged 43)
F-BBJY Nord NC.888 (misspole)
F-BAFJ (no detail) (ditto)
F-BAAJ Stampe (ditto)
F-BLYV Noralpha (ditto)
No. 202 Noralpha French AF (misspole)
No. 124 Noralpha French AF (misspole)
Chaps, I’ll break now to see how far we get... But there are more which includes quite a few from the Reims Cessna factory....
Appreciate any help.
Bill
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Post by howardlgw on Nov 16, 2020 23:56:29 GMT
A quick look at Air Britain Register of France 1973, gives F-BISK Piel CP.301A Emeraude c/n 270 and F-BKJU Jodel D120 Paris-Nice c/n 214 based Pontoise.
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Post by howardlgw on Nov 17, 2020 0:46:54 GMT
A quick look on the net before going to bed Paris Air Show 1969 F-ZWWR SA330 Puma show number 337, F-WLIM Cessna F.172 Skyhawk show number 392, Galeb was 23228 not 23226 show number 667 (perhaps not c/n) and Jastreb 24328
show number 666 (perhaps not c/n). and Les Mereaux F-BLYV Nord 1101 Noralpha c/n 201.
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Post by monarch01 on Nov 17, 2020 8:29:28 GMT
Hi Bill
Sorry for the late reply, I am in the process of re-building all my databases, but a quick look this morning:
Le Bourget 01.06.1969 - this was our day inside the air show. (Total logged 143 logged).
D-HVFW VFW-H-5 (no trace in database)
155095 Huey Cobra US Army (incorrect serial)
23226 Galeb (c/n 667) Yugoslav AF (no trace in DB)
24328 Jastreb (c/n 666 Yugoslav AF (ditto)
F-WLIM (no idea of type)
From Air Britain Digest Aug 1969 : - “In the mock-up field, Dornier showed their Do 132 helicopter, while VFW showed the H.5, marked D-HVFW, a slightly larger variant of the H.3. “
15095 Bell UH-1G Huey Cobra (Show Number 153)
23228 Soko Galeb (Show Number 667)
24328 Soko Jastreb (Show Number 666)
F-WLIM Cessna F.172H (Show Number 392)
Meaux 02.06.1969. (Total logged 61).
F-BIHR Emeraude (misspole)
F-BISK Emeraude (ditto)
F-BFDU (ditto)
F-BIMR Piel CP.301A Emeraude c/n 245, Aeronautique – Club de France, Meaux
F-BISK Piel CP.301A Emeraude c/n 270, A C des Transportes, Chelles
F-BFDU Nothing Similar
Melun 02.06.1969. (Total logged 5).
KA+20 Transall West German AF (no trace of serial)
F-WPXA Nord 262 (need c/n)
KA+208 Transall C160R c/n 49(F49)
F-WPXA Nord 262 Fregate c/n 36
I will have another look this evening
Cheers
Adrian
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Post by billsamuels on Nov 17, 2020 9:18:42 GMT
Morning Howard & Adrian,
What can I say... Other than thanks fellas. Once again, AFA members respond.
Cheers guys, consider yourselves added to the ‘I owe you a beer’ list....
Bill
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Post by lordevanelpuss on Nov 17, 2020 9:50:55 GMT
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Post by davebasing on Nov 17, 2020 11:02:44 GMT
Hi Bill. Others have already done a fine job on your queries. Just a couple from my side so far as I didnt do the 69 Paris show.
68-15095 was an AH1G c/n 20629, still to be found as a travelling exhibit on the US show circuit with the Vietnam Pilots Association based out of N Carolina.
My best bet on your B26 "44-34"at Bretigny would be B26C 44-34773 which was with the CEV there until 1970 when it went to the Musee de l'Air at Le Bourget where you have no doubt seen it since.
Re your Transall at Melun, the early ones built by VFW at Lemwerder and by MBB at Finkenwerder were allocated test marks in the KA+200 to KA+213 range. All except KA+200 were built for the French AF. KA+200 c/n V3 was actually a German AF aircraft and became 50+02. If KA+208 was recorded at Melun then that is fine but I have a slight feeling that 1969 would be a tad too early for that one although cant immediately lay my hands on first flight dates for Transalls. If it was actually in German Air Force colours (rather than just the test code) then it can really only have been KA+200.
F-ZWWR is, as noted, a Puma c/n 05 a pre-production example now with the museum at Dax (where you and I went on the way to the Cazaux show last year) but is I think in their storage hangar.
F-BLYV was indeed a Noralpha c/n 201.
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Post by davebasing on Nov 17, 2020 11:18:01 GMT
Quick addition, F-BMJQ was an A26C c/n18762,F-BGUC was indeed an MB100 c/n3 and F-BGUD was c/n4. F-BGVI was an MB83D prototype c/n 01. F-BCMX was an MS505 c/n 691. F-BOXZ was a Bo208 c/n625, F-BLBY was an MS885 c/n 5389, F-BBJY was an NC858 c/n 139.
Please don't tell anyone I know anything about light aircraft!!
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Post by billsamuels on Nov 17, 2020 11:54:40 GMT
Thanks Dave.
Re the Transall, this may not help at all but my log for the Melun visit reads like this;
KA+20 Transall C-160 WGAF
33 Transall C-160 South African AF
F-WPXA Nord 262
E-01 Jaguar French AF
02 Mirage G French AF
Not that this helps, one way or the other, but I can only surmise that ‘the group’ concluded that KA+20 was a WGAF machine...
Hopefully, if you unearth the first flight details that might help...
Cheers mate - consider yourself added to the beer list!!
Bill
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Post by billsamuels on Nov 17, 2020 11:58:41 GMT
Quick addition, F-BMJQ was an A26C c/n18762,F-BGUC was indeed an MB100 c/n3 and F-BGUD was c/n4. F-BGVI was an MB83D prototype c/n 01. F-BCMX was an MS505 c/n 691. F-BOXZ was a Bo208 c/n625, F-BLBY was an MS885 c/n 5389, F-BBJY was an NC858 c/n 139. Please don't tell anyone I know anything about light aircraft!! Your secret is safe, in my hands... 😂😂 Gaw’d bless you, guv’nor.... Bill |
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Post by billsamuels on Nov 17, 2020 12:44:20 GMT
G’day M’Lord. Appreciate that. I’ll have to admit that Scramble is often one of the points of call for these type of queries but in this instance their list is heavily slanted towards the military exhibits... None the less a superb source of great information... Cheers. Bill |
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Post by davebasing on Nov 17, 2020 13:00:03 GMT
There's a final digit missing from your South African AF Transall which you have as 33. My guess would be their first one, serial 331 which first flew on 18 January 1979 and was delivered to S Africa on 11/12 July 1969, since 332 only followed on delivery on 19 March 1970. I think the S African ones were actually built at Melun.
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Post by billsamuels on Nov 17, 2020 21:19:10 GMT
Paris Air Show 1969 - Part Deux!
Bayes 04.06.1969. (Total logged 37).
F-CADO Nord 800
F-CRPK Nord 800
F-CREX Nord 800
F-CRMA (no type logged)
Chavenay 04.06.1969. (Total logged 73).
F-WLKO (no type logged)
F-WNGK (ditto)
F-WGSU (ditto)
F-CCAY (ditto)
F-WCAZ (ditto)
F-BFPB (ditto)
F-CBIU (ditto)
St Cyr 04.06.1969. (Total logged 119).
F-CRIB (no type logged)
Toussus 04.06.1969. (Total logged 230).
N2772C Ce170
F-BLUR (no type logged)
F-BBEY (ditto)
5T-TAF Ce206
OH-BBD Mooney
F-BKVB (no type logged)
OO-HII (ditto)
No.47 Bell 47 French AF
F-BDJL (no type logged)
Mitry-Mory 05.06.1969. (Total logged 48).
F-WFEC (no type logged)
F-BCSB (ditto)
F-BCRS (ditto)
I think I’ll close, for now, as I don’t wish to bore you all....
Couple of things worthy of mention. First, which I should have mentioned much sooner, was that on the 3rd June I made my FIRST EVER Boeing 747 N731PA, which was attending the show... I can remember feeling in absolute awe at the size of it... Having been used to the likes of Boeing 707’s, Douglas DC-8’s for several years, it was massive in comparison... Secondly, we were camping (under canvass) right next door to Le Bourget - I remember the grass mound between the camp site and LBG, from the top we could see right into the field....
Anyway, thanks again to Adrian, Howard, M’Lud and Dave for your responses so far.
Cheers lads.
Bill
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Post by monarch01 on Nov 18, 2020 7:49:01 GMT
Bayes 04.06.1969. (Total logged 37).
F-CADO Nord 800 Emouchet SA-104 c/n 210
F-CRPK Nord 800 Emouchet SA-103 c/n 75
F-CREX Nord 800 Emouchet SA-103 c/n 132
F-CRMA (no type logged) Castrel 25S c/n 172
Chavenay 04.06.1969. (Total logged 73).
F-WLKO (no type logged)
F-WNGK (ditto)
F-WGSU (ditto)
F-CCAY (ditto) Edelweiss C-34 c/n 02
F-WCAZ (ditto)
F-BFPB (ditto) Auster V-J-1 c/n 2317
F-CBIU (ditto) Castel C-301S c/n 1134
St Cyr 04.06.1969. (Total logged 119).
F-CRIB (no type logged) Emouchet SA-103 c/n 109
Toussus 04.06.1969. (Total logged 230).
N2772C Ce170
F-BLUR (no type logged)
F-BBEY (ditto) SNCAN Nord 1203 II c/n 345
5T-TAF Ce206
OH-BBD Mooney
F-BKVB (no type logged)
OO-HII (ditto)
No.47 Bell 47 French AF
F-BDJL (no type logged)
Mitry-Mory 05.06.1969. (Total logged 48).
F-WFEC (no type logged)
F-BCSB (ditto) Bucker 181 c/n 127
F-BCRS (ditto) Bucker 181 c/n 119
I think I’ll close, for now, as I don’t wish to bore you all....
Update from yesterday :-
F-BFDU at Meaux 02-06-1969 was Nord N.1223 Norelan c/n 02
Cheers
Adrian
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Post by davebasing on Nov 18, 2020 8:43:06 GMT
Your Bell 47 at Toussus was actually French Army rather than Air Force, Agusta Bell 47G c/n047. It was eventually civilianised as F-GCCL.
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Post by billsamuels on Nov 18, 2020 9:20:25 GMT
Your Bell 47 at Toussus was actually French Army rather than Air Force, Agusta Bell 47G c/n047. It was eventually civilianised as F-GCCL. Thanks Dave. Another one tidied up... I think you’ll be interested to know that on the same visit we also clocked Augusta Bell 47’s; 117, 1315, 723 and 131... Plus a couple of Cessna Bird Dog’s; 24517, 24524. Cessna 310; 242, and US Army Seminole 0-83085. Bet you’ve seen all of them.... Cheers mate. Bill |
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Post by billsamuels on Nov 18, 2020 9:23:52 GMT
Bayes 04.06.1969. (Total logged 37). F-CADO Nord 800 Emouchet SA-104 c/n 210 F-CRPK Nord 800 Emouchet SA-103 c/n 75 F-CREX Nord 800 Emouchet SA-103 c/n 132 F-CRMA (no type logged) Castrel 25S c/n 172 Chavenay 04.06.1969. (Total logged 73). F-WLKO (no type logged) F-WNGK (ditto) F-WGSU (ditto) F-CCAY (ditto) Edelweiss C-34 c/n 02 F-WCAZ (ditto) F-BFPB (ditto) Auster V-J-1 c/n 2317 F-CBIU (ditto) Castel C-301S c/n 1134 St Cyr 04.06.1969. (Total logged 119). F-CRIB (no type logged) Emouchet SA-103 c/n 109 Toussus 04.06.1969. (Total logged 230). N2772C Ce170 F-BLUR (no type logged) F-BBEY (ditto) SNCAN Nord 1203 II c/n 345 5T-TAF Ce206 OH-BBD Mooney F-BKVB (no type logged) OO-HII (ditto) No.47 Bell 47 French AF F-BDJL (no type logged) Mitry-Mory 05.06.1969. (Total logged 48). F-WFEC (no type logged) F-BCSB (ditto) Bucker 181 c/n 127 F-BCRS (ditto) Bucker 181 c/n 119 I think I’ll close, for now, as I don’t wish to bore you all.... Update from yesterday :-F-BFDU at Meaux 02-06-1969 was Nord N.1223 Norelan c/n 02 Cheers Adrian Cheers Adrian. Really appreciate all your help mate. I feel like I’m finally breaking the back of all these queries... Thanks mate. Bill |
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Post by davebasing on Nov 18, 2020 9:31:46 GMT
Would have liked to see your U8 53-8085 as I've seen 8083,8084,8086,8087,8088 & 8089!
Couple of tie ups - F-BDJL was an MS230 c/n1061 & F-WFEC was a Max Williams MW25 (surprised you didn't recognise it!!) the fuselage of which was stored at Mitry for some years
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Post by billsamuels on Nov 18, 2020 13:58:06 GMT
Would have liked to see your U8 53-8085 as I've seen 8083,8084,8086,8087,8088 & 8089! Couple of tie ups - F-BDJL was an MS230 c/n1061 & F-WFEC was a Max Williams MW25 (surprised you didn't recognise it!!) the fuselage of which was stored at Mitry for some years Hi Dave, I’ll spend the next 10 minutes in the naughty corner!! Sir, would you happen to have a c/n for the MW25 (whatever that is).... 😉 Cheers mate. Bill |
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Post by davebasing on Nov 18, 2020 15:25:24 GMT
There were seemingly 2 Max Williams MW25s built (perhaps the second one as an apology for the first?) which was basically a home build design which looked much like a Pou de Ciel. In fact there are some photos on the web of the other one actually captioned as a Pou. He also designed the MW25 Motorfly which was slightly larger, and also an aircraft called an X-8, but he was also a designer of motor bikes (which perhaps he should have stuck to). The designer's name wasn't even Max Williams as that was a pseudonym which Max Mourlot used for reasons that are unclear, except perhaps to avoid the blame? As only 2 were built you would imagine them to be c/n1 and 2 in true French fashion, but the one at Angers claims to be c/n36 (perhaps after the bust size of his mistress?). I've never seen a c/n specified for your machine and perhaps it never really had one? Given the dangerous flight characteristics of the original Pou design which caused a rather tiresome tendency to dive head first into the ground with several resultant fatalities (resulting in their being banned until the design was improved), I have no idea whether either of Monsieur Williams/Mourlot's MW25s actually left terra firma without reliance upon the curvature of the earth. If they did then they seem to have got back down again which is always a nice result.
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Post by billsamuels on Nov 18, 2020 17:16:34 GMT
There were seemingly 2 Max Williams MW25s built (perhaps the second one as an apology for the first?) which was basically a home build design which looked much like a Pou de Ciel. In fact there are some photos on the web of the other one actually captioned as a Pou. He also designed the MW25 Motorfly which was slightly larger, and also an aircraft called an X-8, but he was also a designer of motor bikes (which perhaps he should have stuck to). The designer's name wasn't even Max Williams as that was a pseudonym which Max Mourlot used for reasons that are unclear, except perhaps to avoid the blame? As only 2 were built you would imagine them to be c/n1 and 2 in true French fashion, but the one at Angers claims to be c/n36 (perhaps after the bust size of his mistress?). I've never seen a c/n specified for your machine and perhaps it never really had one? Given the dangerous flight characteristics of the original Pou design which caused a rather tiresome tendency to dive head first into the ground with several resultant fatalities (resulting in their being banned until the design was improved), I have no idea whether either of Monsieur Williams/Mourlot's MW25s actually left terra firma without reliance upon the curvature of the earth. If they did then they seem to have got back down again which is always a nice result. Cheers Dave. Truly amazing what some people achieve during their 3 score years and 10... But, having said that, I hope, wherever Max Mourlet is, he’s got a grin on his face, like mine, at your description of his Worldly fame... 😂😂 Thanks for all your help mate. Bill |
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Post by cornwall01 on Nov 19, 2020 17:34:43 GMT
Hi BIll
I use the FreeBird database and have found, I hope, a couple of answers to your queries :-
F-WGSU is a Rigaud-Deproux RD-01 c/n 01
N2772C Cessna 170B c/n 26316 became F-BRHO in July 1969
OH-BBD is noted as a Beech V.35 c/n D-8657
A few other thoughts
F-WLKO could have been F-WLKQ a Jodel DR.200 which was registered as such from 1965 until 2003
F-WCAZ may have been Nord 1002 c/n 168 which was officially registered as F-BCAZ from 1963 until 1969 and then went to Germany so may have had the W prefix whilst testing
OO-HII May have been OO-HIJ which was a Siai S.208 which became F-BSUS in 1970
Hope that helps.
Ray
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Post by cornwall01 on Nov 19, 2020 18:22:46 GMT
Hi BIll
A few answers from your first list :-
F-BGLG is a Brochet MB.80 c/n 7
F-BEAN is a Salmson D.7 T.2 Cricri Major c/n 2
F-BOOP is a PA- 18 Super Cub c/n 18-2078
Hope they help you.
Ray
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Post by billsamuels on Nov 19, 2020 19:29:02 GMT
Superb Ray.
Thanks to you, Howard, Adrian and of course Dave - you’ve very nearly cleared all of my misspole’s and co*k-ups from over 50 years ago... AFA is a remarkable group of individuals. Thanks guys...
Bill
p.s. I’ve got one more section to go....
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Post by monarch01 on Nov 19, 2020 20:47:08 GMT
Sorry, I've lost the plot a bit here Bill, what have we got outstanding ?
Cheers
Adrian
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Post by billsamuels on Nov 19, 2020 22:43:19 GMT
Sorry, I've lost the plot a bit here Bill, what have we got outstanding ? Cheers Adrian Hi Adrian, June 5th & 6th... Not much more.... Seriously. I’ll get it finished tomorrow. Bill |
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