AE67A6...

[dave]

hi,
    does anyone know the id of AE67A6? o/h Manchester at 0945, heading roughly se, trailing, my dog taking me for my walk, and pleasant in the early spring sunshine... tried for this on planefiner but no squawk only the mode-s but thats not identified.
  Also have you noticed all the G/A about now we've opened up alittle, long may it last.

stay safe, regards,
                                dave...

[deke]

According to www.live-military-mode-s.eu/

168431 - Boeing P-8A Poseidon

[dave]

hi,
thanks very much, as i mentioned nothing on planefinder, ADS-B or ManTMA2, which all usually show P.8's...

stay safe, regards,
dave...

[rh226]

I very much doubt that it was 168431. Although that particular one is of the correct squadron (VP-46), it is supposed to be at Djibouti and not at Sigonella/Keflavik..

The callsign was VVRC311 - RC for VP-46, Day (of month) 31, 1st mission

The hex code quoted is one of a block of tactical  codes allocated to P-8s on a daily basis.  So any database that has a fixed tie-up for one of these is incorrect.

The entry in Albert's site (live-military-mode-s.eu) has now been amended/deleted I understand.

For completeness, a 2nd one went Southbound over the UK a couple of hours later, with callsign VVRC312 and hex AE67F6.

[deke]

Mar 31, 2021 17:06:54 GMT rh226 said:

I very much doubt that it was 168431. Although that particular one is of the correct squadron (VP-46), it is supposed to be at Djibouti and not at Sigonella/Keflavik..

The callsign was VVRC311 - RC for VP-46, Day (of month) 31, 1st mission

The hex code quoted is one of a block of tactical  codes allocated to P-8s on a daily basis.  So any database that has a fixed tie-up for one of these is incorrect.

The entry in Albert's site (live-military-mode-s.eu) has now been amended/deleted I understand.

For completeness, a 2nd one went Southbound over the UK a couple of hours later, with callsign VVRC312 and hex AE67F6.

Crikey Dave, that all makes me doubt everything, what a quagmire for the less qualified spotter!

I saw the southbound which was showing up on PF/ADS-B as 168756
Does that seem trustworthy?

[rh226]

Hi Deke,

168756 is definitely incorrect. It is not even on deployment (and not even a VP-46 machine) !!

Basically, if a P-8 shows on any VR system with a hex code of AE66xx, AE67xx or AE68xx (AE6620 to AE68A7 seem to be the limits), then any tie-up indicated is wrong.  This is the tactical hex code block where allocations of aircraft to hex code will change on a daily (or even flight) basis.

Hope that helps,

Cheers,

Bob

[davebasing]

Apr 1, 2021 11:23:32 GMT rh226 said:

Hi Deke,

168756 is definitely incorrect. It is not even on deployment (and not even a VP-46 machine) !!

Basically, if a P-8 shows on any VR system with a hex code of AE66xx, AE67xx or AE68xx (AE6620 to AE68A7 seem to be the limits), then any tie-up indicated is wrong.  This is the tactical hex code block where allocations of aircraft to hex code will change on a daily (or even flight) basis.

Hope that helps,

Cheers,

Bob

Sadly that's true. Fortunately the correct serials of those operating to or from Lossie can usually be visually confirmed. Harks back to the days when the US Navy removed serials from many of its patrol P3 Orions, save for inside the nosewheel door, so could only be read on the ground. Reports at the time suggested (rightly or wrongly) that crews of anti drug running P3 operations particularly in the Caribbean were receiving direct threats from the bad guys who had tied the personnel involved to the serial and markings of the P3s that had buzzed them. Fortunately that didn't last too long.

Below is 154598 of VP64 which I photographed at its base at Willow Grove, Pennsylvania in April 1992. No external serial or unit marks just code 01 on the nose, some didn't even carry a code. Fortunately I had a base photo pass (sadly expired now) so could check the doors.

92-fn by dave tompkins, on Flickr

[deke]

Thanks Bob, Dave

That's all fascinating, and makes me feel somewhat naive. I now know I have a whole bunch of US military in the logs over the last five years or so that are most likely false.
I suspect it's the same for the OP Dave too, and probably some others.

Thanks for taking time to explain, there's a whole lot to learn.

Cheers, Deke

[rh226]

The usage of this batch of tactical hex codes for USN P-8s has only been noted since October 2019, Deke. So it is only these ones that will be suspect if the tie-up is taken from VR displays.

FC will always note them flying over, and sometimes will even manage to obtain tie-ups from Keflavik.

[davebasing]

Apr 1, 2021 22:48:21 GMT deke said:

Thanks Bob, Dave

That's all fascinating, and makes me feel somewhat naive. I now know I have a whole bunch of US military in the logs over the last five years or so that are most likely false.
I suspect it's the same for the OP Dave too, and probably some others.

Thanks for taking time to explain, there's a whole lot to learn.

Cheers, Deke

Hi Deke - Probably not too much to worry about. Bob probably knows better than me, but the P8s only seemed to move to tactical Mode S codes about a year or so ago and those routing to/from Lossie have generally had the correct serials confirmed by Mark 1 eyeballs. Lakenheath F15s have used tactical Mode S codes for a long time so they can't be relied on either. The same applies to the RAF's F35s. Army Air Corps Apaches have recently become a Mode S problem. With several having already gone to Boeing at Mesa for re-build (with new serials allocated) the Mode S tie ups that used to apply to specific individual aircraft are no longer what they were. Still haven't really worked out if they have become tactical as well or a simple permanent re-allocation between those still in the UK. A few weeks ago Gunship 1 & 2 were pinging as ZJ211 & 213 but on landing were visually confirmed as ZJ215 & 216. As Bill's recent post noted, Machete 1 & 2 were seen over darkest Hampshire with Mode S codes that were originally allocated to ZJ217 & 219. ZJ219 is however one of those on re-build in Arizona and cannot therefore have been Machete 2. 217 is still UK based but whether it really was Machete 1 that day is an open question. The 'black' USAF 757s are of course also a known Mode S problem.

There have always been problems with aircraft not actually eyeballed. Many many years ago one of the Scottish magazines used to report trans-Atlantic airliner tie-ups. Trouble was they were taken from the filed flight plans (filed some hours before the flight for Oceanic track clearance purposes) and the registration was not regarded as an integral part of that flight plan. Thus, if the aircraft scheduled for the flight went tech, or was late on its previous inbound flight, a substitute was used but with no requirement for the flight plan to be revised to take account of this so long as the aircraft type remained the same. This clearly didn't happen too often but no real way of knowing when it did. In pre Mode S days I used to use ACARS and the Shanwick HF frequency where the aircraft's individual SELCAL could be used to get an accurate tie up.

All part of the rich tapestry of something or the other. Have a good Easter, may your skies be blue.

[deke]

Phenomenal knowledge sharing Dave, thank you, even if all quite disheartening for someone who just wants to squeeze in a simple spotting life where the VR is always trustworthy!

[dave]

Apr 2, 2021 9:41:02 GMT davebasing said:

Apr 1, 2021 22:48:21 GMT deke said:

Thanks Bob, Dave

That's all fascinating, and makes me feel somewhat naive. I now know I have a whole bunch of US military in the logs over the last five years or so that are most likely false.
I suspect it's the same for the OP Dave too, and probably some others.

Thanks for taking time to explain, there's a whole lot to learn.

Cheers, Deke

Hi Deke - Probably not too much to worry about. Bob probably knows better than me, but the P8s only seemed to move to tactical Mode S codes about a year or so ago and those routing to/from Lossie have generally had the correct serials confirmed by Mark 1 eyeballs. Lakenheath F15s have used tactical Mode S codes for a long time so they can't be relied on either. The same applies to the RAF's F35s. Army Air Corps Apaches have recently become a Mode S problem. With several having already gone to Boeing at Mesa for re-build (with new serials allocated) the Mode S tie ups that used to apply to specific individual aircraft are no longer what they were. Still haven't really worked out if they have become tactical as well or a simple permanent re-allocation between those still in the UK. A few weeks ago Gunship 1 & 2 were pinging as ZJ211 & 213 but on landing were visually confirmed as ZJ215 & 216. As Bill's recent post noted, Machete 1 & 2 were seen over darkest Hampshire with Mode S codes that were originally allocated to ZJ217 & 219. ZJ219 is however one of those on re-build in Arizona and cannot therefore have been Machete 2. 217 is still UK based but whether it really was Machete 1 that day is an open question. The 'black' USAF 757s are of course also a known Mode S problem.

There have always been problems with aircraft not actually eyeballed. Many many years ago one of the Scottish magazines used to report trans-Atlantic airliner tie-ups. Trouble was they were taken from the filed flight plans (filed some hours before the flight for Oceanic track clearance purposes) and the registration was not regarded as an integral part of that flight plan. Thus, if the aircraft scheduled for the flight went tech, or was late on its previous inbound flight, a substitute was used but with no requirement for the flight plan to be revised to take account of this so long as the aircraft type remained the same. This clearly didn't happen too often but no real way of knowing when it did. In pre Mode S days I used to use ACARS and the Shanwick HF frequency where the aircraft's individual SELCAL could be used to get an accurate tie up.

All part of the rich tapestry of something or the other. Have a good Easter, may your skies be blue.


hi dave,
            SELCAL's that brought memories of early mornings listening to 5616,5649, for my day's spot, then when your flight came on a burst of static, then over to 8903 if i remember right to try for it later, ah those were the days... non of this instant(well on some) internet...

stay safe, regards,                              dave...

[rugbyref]

Apr 2, 2021 9:41:02 GMT davebasing said:

Apr 1, 2021 22:48:21 GMT deke said:

Thanks Bob, Dave

That's all fascinating, and makes me feel somewhat naive. I now know I have a whole bunch of US military in the logs over the last five years or so that are most likely false.
I suspect it's the same for the OP Dave too, and probably some others.

Thanks for taking time to explain, there's a whole lot to learn.

Cheers, Deke

Hi Deke - Probably not too much to worry about. Bob probably knows better than me, but the P8s only seemed to move to tactical Mode S codes about a year or so ago and those routing to/from Lossie have generally had the correct serials confirmed by Mark 1 eyeballs. Lakenheath F15s have used tactical Mode S codes for a long time so they can't be relied on either. The same applies to the RAF's F35s. Army Air Corps Apaches have recently become a Mode S problem. With several having already gone to Boeing at Mesa for re-build (with new serials allocated) the Mode S tie ups that used to apply to specific individual aircraft are no longer what they were. Still haven't really worked out if they have become tactical as well or a simple permanent re-allocation between those still in the UK. A few weeks ago Gunship 1 & 2 were pinging as ZJ211 & 213 but on landing were visually confirmed as ZJ215 & 216. As Bill's recent post noted, Machete 1 & 2 were seen over darkest Hampshire with Mode S codes that were originally allocated to ZJ217 & 219. ZJ219 is however one of those on re-build in Arizona and cannot therefore have been Machete 2. 217 is still UK based but whether it really was Machete 1 that day is an open question. The 'black' USAF 757s are of course also a known Mode S problem.

There have always been problems with aircraft not actually eyeballed. Many many years ago one of the Scottish magazines used to report trans-Atlantic airliner tie-ups. Trouble was they were taken from the filed flight plans (filed some hours before the flight for Oceanic track clearance purposes) and the registration was not regarded as an integral part of that flight plan. Thus, if the aircraft scheduled for the flight went tech, or was late on its previous inbound flight, a substitute was used but with no requirement for the flight plan to be revised to take account of this so long as the aircraft type remained the same. This clearly didn't happen too often but no real way of knowing when it did. In pre Mode S days I used to use ACARS and the Shanwick HF frequency where the aircraft's individual SELCAL could be used to get an accurate tie up.

All part of the rich tapestry of something or the other. Have a good Easter, may your skies be blue.

That means 219 will need to be ‘unlogged’ then. Cheers Phil

[bizfreeq]

Just a small point, none of the UK Apaches are being rebuilt in the US. They are stripped on arrival and the fuselage is scrapped. Certain components that were removed will then be re-used in a brand new fuselage and that is what ends up at Wattisham some while later.
Cheers
Mark

[davebasing]

That's true but Boeing refer to the 639 Apaches they are upgrading to AH64E standard for the UK and US Armies at Mesa as "being rebuilt".

[davebasing]

Looks like the Apache Mode S codes may be tactical rather than aircraft specific. 43C250 which used to belong to ZJ187 has now been visually confirmed as being used by at least two different Apaches (ZJ188 & 208) in the last few weeks. Additionally some RAF Typhoons have also been noted using Mode S codes initially allocated to other aircraft in the fleet, as the RAF F35s have done since they were delivered.

[Jeff]

I wonder what the process is of changing the outputs, I was under the impression it wasn't a 10 second job to change HEX codes and wasn't a job for the pilot.

[davebasing]

Apr 14, 2021 9:55:28 GMT Jeff said:

I wonder what the process is of changing the outputs, I was under the impression it wasn't a 10 second job to change HEX codes and wasn't a job for the pilot.

Those with a bit more technical knowledge than I have may correct this, but my understanding is that each aircraft is allocated an ICAO Aircraft Address (originally called a Mode S address) consisting of 24 digits. That address is then tied to a specific 6 digit Mode S code which we get on our receivers. From my rather peripheral dealings with this in ICAO in Montreal some time back there is a specific provision that, for security reasons, military aircraft can change that ICAO Aircraft Address before each flight but there was an overriding provision that no aircraft (civil or military) should change its Aircraft Address while actually in flight to avoid ATC confusion. Modern military on board equipment  does now I believe allow an aircraft to store a large number of aircraft addresses in its system, each of course attached to a different Mode S code. Thus, it seems in such cases to be a simple flick of a cockpit switch and hey presto you are suddenly something else (and why you shouldn't change this in flight, an Apache suddenly becoming a Typhoon could spoil some poor controller's whole day and also that of whoever it then bumped into). That would account for the 'tactical codes' now used by (at least) the likes of the Apaches, USN P8s and the RAF Typhoons & F35s and certain USAF fighters. Does however make one doubt anything not actually eyeballed though!

Since I cant even remember what I had for breakfast I may however have this mis-remembered, as someone once said, so I'm open to correction.

[Jeff]

Apr 14, 2021 15:41:11 GMT davebasing said:

Apr 14, 2021 9:55:28 GMT Jeff said:

I wonder what the process is of changing the outputs, I was under the impression it wasn't a 10 second job to change HEX codes and wasn't a job for the pilot.

Those with a bit more technical knowledge than I have may correct this, but my understanding is that each aircraft is allocated an ICAO Aircraft Address (originally called a Mode S address) consisting of 24 digits. That address is then tied to a specific 6 digit Mode S code which we get on our receivers. From my rather peripheral dealings with this in ICAO in Montreal some time back there is a specific provision that, for security reasons, military aircraft can change that ICAO Aircraft Address before each flight but there was an overriding provision that no aircraft (civil or military) should change its Aircraft Address while actually in flight to avoid ATC confusion. Modern military on board equipment  does now I believe allow an aircraft to store a large number of aircraft addresses in its system, each of course attached to a different Mode S code. Thus, it seems in such cases to be a simple flick of a cockpit switch and hey presto you are suddenly something else (and why you shouldn't change this in flight, an Apache suddenly becoming a Typhoon could spoil some poor controller's whole day and also that of whoever it then bumped into). That would account for the 'tactical codes' now used by (at least) the likes of the Apaches, USN P8s and the RAF Typhoons & F35s and certain USAF fighters. Does however make one doubt anything not actually eyeballed though!

Since I cant even remember what I had for breakfast I may however have this mis-remembered, as someone once said, so I'm open to correction.

Thx Dave, I assume there is something in place so that no two aircraft in the fleet are carrying the same hex at the same time?

[rh226]

Someone had better tell the USAF !!

I remember the classic instance several years ago when AE119C - one of the well known C-17A dual usage hex codes - was noted going over the SW Westbound (correctly 03-3119) while showing also over the North Sea inbound Mildenhall (03-3126 which should be AE1237).  This is a case of one of the two boxes being changed for one reason or another and not being re-programmed..

Of course, boxes do sometimes get re-programmed incorrectly (usually by one digit, or even reversed digits in the octal).  An example is the USMC KC-130T currently on overhaul at Cambridge (BuNo 165810).  It came in using the hex of the oldest flying KC-135R (57-1419).

Finally, more recently, the hex block AE61F6 to AE6206 was originally used by factory fresh UH-60Ms 17-20978/79, 18-20980 to 18-20994.  However, a bit later, factory fresh USAF C/HC/MC-130Js  in the c/n range 5872-5895 were also allocated this block.  Both aircraft types are still using these codes.

Bob

[dave]

hi,
thanks for all the views on tac-codes, etc, but don't the US forces know that's there are thousands of enthusiasts in this country, well maybe hundreds who are trying to log their flights... just a thought.

stay safe, regards,
dave...