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Post by graham on Jan 10, 2022 8:46:06 GMT
If you have an hour to spare, this is a superb video that features some aircraft I'd never heard of
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Post by Jeff on Jan 10, 2022 10:36:05 GMT
I can tell your enjoying that smart tv 😁.
I find myself on utube most of the time nowadays
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Post by dave on Jan 10, 2022 11:09:25 GMT
hi,
wasn't the Arrow like TSR-2 regarding political interference...
stay safe, regards,
dave...
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Post by davebasing on Jan 10, 2022 12:04:59 GMT
Thanks for sight of this Graham. The Arrow, like the cancellation of the bulk of the F106 orders, the F108 programme and the bulk of the UK projects cancelled under the 1957 Defence Review were casualties of the school of thought that the future was not in manned aircraft but in missiles and anti-missile missiles. The UK was at one stage considering an order for 144 Arrows to replace the Javelins (then the TSR2 to do the job, then the F111 but we eventually got second hand Phantoms till the Tornado came along. The Canadians got Voodoos). One forward fuselage and some smaller parts of an original Arrow survives in Canada having been spirited out despite orders to immediately scrap every part of the aircraft, its jigs and design drawings, lest they fell into potential enemy hands. There are still rumours that a complete original aircraft (supposedly 25202 RL-202) was spirited away and remains to this day hidden somewhere in Canada. It always seemed a bit of a long shot (though the head of Avro Canada – which went bust as a result of the cancellation – refused to deny it) and with the original plans having been rediscovered in the loft of the designer and with the Air Force helping with the recovery of the scale Arrow drones from Lake Ontario, the political climate would long have seemed conducive to its revelation. I graphed the original forward fuselage of 25206 RL-206 (which never flew, being in final assembly when the cancellation came) in 2010 in the extensive museum at Rockcliffe outside Ottawa.  IMG_6781 by dave tompkins, on Flickr Two superb full scale replicas were built, the one below I took at Toronto Downsview in 2007 before the museum closed and its now preserved in Edenvale, Ontario. The other, built for a film, is stored at Westaskiwin in Alberta. For those interested, the Lancaster is FM104 now being restored in Victoria, British Columbia. The Downsview museum also had the fin of Nimrod XV239 as a memorial to the 7 crew who died in its tragic crash into nearby Lake Ontario during the Toronto air show in 1995. With the closure of the museum the fin was returned in 2020 in a CAF C17 to the Morayvia Museum at Kinloss.  can 103 by dave tompkins, on Flickr  can 099 by dave tompkins, on Flickr  can 104 by dave tompkins, on Flickr  can 108 by dave tompkins, on Flickr |
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Post by gtf4j2m on Jan 10, 2022 14:55:49 GMT
How were the Phantoms second hand. They were all new build aircraft with Rolls Royce Spey engines and a totally redesigned fuselage to fit the larger Spey. The only second hand ones we got were the F-4J(uk) models that we got in 1983.
Graham
GTF4J2M
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Post by davebasing on Jan 10, 2022 18:05:16 GMT
How were the Phantoms second hand. They were all new build aircraft with Rolls Royce Spey engines and a totally redesigned fuselage to fit the larger Spey. The only second hand ones we got were the F-4J(uk) models that we got in 1983. Graham GTF4J2M Exactly, the F4Js were ex US Navy/Marines. |
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Post by davebasing on Jan 10, 2022 18:51:53 GMT
The Falklands conflict and the need to base aircraft down there showed up the distinct shortage of interceptor fighters in the RAF as the first Tornado F2s only started arriving two years later and some years before the Tornado F3 arrived. The short-term fix was a batch of somewhat elderly former US Navy/Marines F4s which became ZE350 to 364. The UK had wanted the versions which had been upgraded to F4S standard but none were available for release so had to settle for the more basic F4J versions from the boneyard at Davis Monthan, half of which were actual Vietnam combat veterans from the 60s. ZE353 which I graphed at Wattisham in 1985 and again by then black finned at Waddington in 1990 had over 600 combat missions under its belt with the US Marines. It expired at the Manston Fire School.
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Post by gtf4j2m on Jan 10, 2022 21:23:39 GMT
Many of the F-4J(UK) had the scars to prove combat as well, with some having damage repairs still visible. I worked on them from 1987 until they were withdrawn (hence GTF4J2M). THere was little commanality with the F-4K /F-4M.
ZE360 hasn't yet expired and is due to move to Kemble this year. The Tornado F.2 was of little use as an interceptor and it wasn't until the F.3 that we got got anywhere near what the Phantom provided.
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Post by graham on Jan 11, 2022 8:27:31 GMT
Great history Dave and Graham, thank you. The main u/c bogie certainly looks very similar to that of the TSR2.
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Post by davebasing on Jan 14, 2022 15:02:46 GMT
Particularly for Graham (gtf4j2m), some of the RAF’s F4Js I’ve graphed over the years, mainly at Wattisham. Marines 155755 I took while stored at AMARC in 1983 before it left to become ZE362. It had survived 5 combat tours with the US Navy in the Vietnam war, 3 on the USS Ranger and 2 on the USS Constellation before moving to the Marine Corps and eventual retirement to AMARC in July 1982. Back in 1976 while still with the Navy it had been adorned with bicentennial fin markings for the 200th anniversary of the USA.  83-ja by dave tompkins, on Flickr ZE353 ‘E’ logged over 600 combat missions in Vietnam. By 1990 it had gained the all-black fin when I took her at Waddington. Story was that ZE363 ‘W’ had gone tech at Goose Bay on its delivery flight and while awaiting spares the bored crew sprayed the fin black, something which then caught on with the rest of the fleet (Graham might know if that’s true?).  85-bw by dave tompkins, on Flickr  90-dh by dave tompkins, on Flickr ZE354 ‘R’ & 355 ‘S’ were also Vietnam combat veterans.  85-ca by dave tompkins, on Flickr  85-bx by dave tompkins, on Flickr ZE351 was onboard the USS Nimitz as 153773 in the Solent in September 1975 while ZE359 was on the USS Independence in the Solent in July 1969 as 155529. While I took some of the F4s on both visits onboard those carriers I don’t appear to have taken either of these. Only F4J loss in RAF service was ZE358 ‘H’ which struck a hill at Pant-y-Gwair in Wales while on a 3-ship practice low level intercept in August 1987, sadly killing both crew.  85-cc by dave tompkins, on Flickr |
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