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Post by davebasing on May 2, 2018 9:45:46 GMT
Graham – I was lucky enough to have been at Prestwick in 1962 when the Canadian Air Force Sabres had been withdrawn from their European bases and were stored with Scottish Aviation awaiting disposal. Lines and lines of them. Also then crawled over the Lasham yard from 1963 onwards where many of them had been roaded from Scotland after being sold to Staravia for scrap. They were joined by a significant number of CF100s also from Prestwick, as SAL had the maintenance contract for the RCAF in Europe, something they continued with the Canadian Starfighters. Unlike the Sabres, the CF100s were processed very quickly. They arrived in 1963 and by 1965 just one aircraft was left at Lasham (18460).
Looking at my notes I can offer the following. Those shown as “no reports” were not seen by me at Lasham, or included on any confirmed lists that were produced at the time. I checked my Prestwick log for these but none of them were noted there by me. Not definitive as some could well have been hangered at Prestwick though I did get round most of SAL. Most carried distinctive unit tail markings and two letter codes which related to the individual squadron, though some were cocooned with serials painted on. I'll dig out some of the ohotos from that memorable day at Prestwick.
18596 F-86 Sabre - as noted by Bob this was a CF100 which was damaged at North Bay while with 441 Sq RCAF on 15 January 1960 and struck off charge there on 21 November 1960
19529 F-86 Sabre - again as noted by Bob this was a Sabre which went to the RAF as XB 626. After retirement this aircraft was struck off charge on 18 December 1958 scrapped at Dunsfold and, with a number of others, went to the Staravia yard at Lasham in 1959. By 1963 all of the former RAF Sabres AT Lasham had been moved to the sister yard at Church Crookham but the two that then survived were returned to the Lasham yard in 1970. 19529 was one of those returned and was there at least until 1971.
19764 F-86 Sabre like the above this was another ex RAF machine (XD762) struck off in 1958 and scrapped at Dunsfold, was also at Church Crookham by 1963 and was the only other aircraft returned to Lasham in 1970.
23425 F-86 Sabre at Lasham with 422 Sq marks from 1963 23431 F-86 Sabre no reports at Lasham 23549 F-86 Sabre “ 23562 F-86 Sabre at Lasham from 1963 23573 F-86 Sabre at Lasham by 1964 23574 F-86 Sabre at Lasham with 441 Sq marks coded BT from 1963 23581 F-86 Sabre no reports at Lasham 23590 F-86 Sabre at Lasham from 1963 23596 F-86 Sabre at Lasham in 430Sq marks coded VH from 1963 23606 F-86 Sabre no reports at Lasham 23612 F-86 Sabre at Lasham with 439Sq marks coded IG from 1963 23617 F-86 Sabre at Lasham with 441 Sq marks coded BT from 1963 23621 F-86 Sabre at Lasham with 422 Sq marks coded TF from 1963 23632 F-86 Sabre no reports at Lasham 23656 F-86 Sabre at Lasham from 1964 23659 F-86 Sabre no reports at Lasham
They were of course all Canadair Sabres and not technically F86s.
I am intrigued by the mention of Canadian Neptunes (or parts thereof) being there, as there have never been any other reports of this. All the Canadian aircraft that ended up at Lasham were actually retired from service at their European bases and bought as scrap by Staravia from SAL at Prestwick where they had been stored. The 25 Canadian Neptunes were all Canadian based and (with the exception of one lost in a crash in 1965) all were withdrawn at their home bases on the same day - 31 July 1968. With the exception of those scheduled for preservation and the odd one that became a fire bomber in the US, all were scrapped on site in Canada.
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Post by davebasing on May 2, 2018 9:56:45 GMT
Although I no longer have my physical logs of the time, I saw MT-5, MT-7 and MT-9 at Biggin Hill Air Fete in May 1967. My handwritten "database" (i.e. pre-spreadsheets) does not include a leading zero for them. So they must have dropped the leading zero fairly early in their life. Hi Bob Not sure when they actually dropped the zero, probably progressively as the aircraft went though maintenance. When MT 4 was given a Diables Rouge retro scheme in the 90s it was painted with its period marking as MT-04.
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Post by graham on May 2, 2018 12:30:25 GMT
Many thanks ZZ and Dave, great info,
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Post by graham on May 2, 2018 12:47:28 GMT
Sorry chaps, back to the Sabres, what do I need to add or take off the serials above in order to locate them on PB please?
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Post by davebasing on May 2, 2018 12:52:08 GMT
Although I no longer have my physical logs of the time, I saw MT-5, MT-7 and MT-9 at Biggin Hill Air Fete in May 1967. My handwritten "database" (i.e. pre-spreadsheets) does not include a leading zero for them. So they must have dropped the leading zero fairly early in their life. Hi Bob Not sure when they actually dropped the zero, probably progressively as the aircraft went though maintenance. When MT 4 was given a Diables Rouge retro scheme in the 90s it was painted with its period marking as MT-04. Spoke to an ex Belgian AF old mate who used to fly the things (amongst others). His view is that it was originally a paint shop cock up as all other types in the BAF continued to carry the zero as they do to this day. He postulates that a junior painter simply left off the zero ("Quel est cette avion?" - "C'est numero sept" - "Bien, merci!") and that having done so, and with no-one actually noticing, they were sort of stuck with it. Its only his thoughts but I can see it happening! Otherwise why only the Maggies?
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Post by graham on May 2, 2018 14:52:47 GMT
A quick one chaps, in W-S-M heli museum, there's an OH-50D Gyrodyne, noted as 05-1482 - computer says, "noooo". Any ideas please?
And a final one for US Army
AH-64 Apache noted at IAT 1993 as 87-24288, not in the PB vaults, any ideas please?
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Post by bizfreeq on May 2, 2018 16:32:04 GMT
The Gyrodyne is a QH-50 rather than OH. It is marked as QS-1482 though I'm not sure where that stands in the way of being a serial! Google QH-50 Weston Super Mare in images and it's there so you can see what I mean. Cheers Mark
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Post by davebasing on May 2, 2018 16:32:46 GMT
Your Apache was 84-24288
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Post by rh226 on May 2, 2018 16:33:26 GMT
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Post by graham on May 2, 2018 18:52:58 GMT
Cheers chaps, much obliged
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Post by graham on May 3, 2018 6:46:15 GMT
Today's first query please anyone who can help
Paris Air Show 21/6/71 I noted two French AF Nord 262s as "62" and "73", but can find no reference to them in PB
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Post by gtf4j2m on May 3, 2018 8:12:06 GMT
62 was c/n 62 Aeronavale d/d 7Apr70 and WFU at Lorient Mar00
73 was c/n 73 Aeronavale d/d 25Feb71 last noted stored at Chateaudun in 2017
For military serials you can access the database at Scramble without being a member, which gives gen from all airforces
Graham GTF4J2M
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Post by graham on May 3, 2018 11:43:55 GMT
That's great Graham thank you
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Post by graham on May 4, 2018 12:08:34 GMT
A few have just reared their heads, if anyone can help please...
Paris 1973, noted a MB-326K as MM612975 but that does not compute. Looks like possibly one too many digits
IAT 1993, noted a Kuwaiti L100 as 324 but nowt in PB
Yeovilton Show last year 8/7/17, noted a C-119 as MM526054, again, looks like too many digits
Thanks chaps
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Post by gtf4j2m on May 4, 2018 12:37:04 GMT
Paris 1973 had 2 MB326K MM54290 and MM54391
IAT 93 the L100-30 was KAF-324 c/n 4953 both from Scramble on the web airshow database
C-119 last year I cannot help only C-119 I know is the Boxcar and I doubt it was one of those.
Graham GTF4J2M
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Post by gtf4j2m on May 4, 2018 12:39:33 GMT
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Post by gtf4j2m on May 4, 2018 12:54:43 GMT
C-119 MM52-6054 c/n 11122 coded 46-88 scrapped Pisa about 1979 at Paris 1973 was MM61-2975 SM.1019E c/n 305B-0021 (converted from Cessna O-1) check out www.scramble.nl/Graham GTF4J2M
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Post by chrisj on May 4, 2018 15:00:57 GMT
Re Lasham and Dave B's notes on Sabres and others . In my notes for Lasham 27 April 63 I have six unknown P2V-5 RCN which were among the mass of aircraft . Now I have no other records of if they were large sections or what but I have always been of the opinion that there were a number of nose sections of Neptunes present . A later visit in 1964 has a note of fifty five plus Sabres being there . It was a job to identify many of the aircraft as there may be a nose in one place and other parts in several other places . The Sea Hawks had tail sections chopped off so putting codes to serials was a problem . Anyway like the Coley Yard near Feltham , there will always be questions ! Chrisj
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Post by graham on May 4, 2018 15:28:18 GMT
Thanks chaps, most obliged.
At the St Athan show in September 1975 I noted two Danish AF F-100s as G-263 and G-767. Scramble confirms these serials yet PB doesn't recognise them. Any clues please?
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Post by zz on May 4, 2018 15:54:16 GMT
A few have just reared their heads, if anyone can help please... Paris 1973, noted a MB-326K as MM612975 but that does not compute. Looks like possibly one too many digits IAT 1993, noted a Kuwaiti L100 as 324 but nowt in PB Yeovilton Show last year 8/7/17, noted a C-119 as MM526054, again, looks like too many digits Thanks chaps You’ve muddled the year for Yeovilton-17/07/71 MM52-6054 C.119G (coded 46-88) as “other” Graham says, scrapped at Pisa around 1979.
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Post by gtf4j2m on May 4, 2018 16:00:57 GMT
The Danish F-100's used a letter G- or GT- and the last 3 of the ex USAF serial number. 54-2263 was w/o in USAF service & 55-2767 went to the Turkish AF in 1959. So these 2 were not present. Perhaps someone else has a log from then. The Danish F-100 batch misses these out. Info from Mach III European AF Directory.
Graham GTF4J2M
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Post by gtf4j2m on May 4, 2018 16:12:53 GMT
I have just googled St Athan 1975 and SWAG report the following all flying from St Mawgan & flypast only
G-283, G-290, G-747, G-768 & GT-982
Hope this helps
Graham GTF4J2M
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Post by davebasing on May 4, 2018 18:26:27 GMT
Re Lasham and Dave B's notes on Sabres and others . In my notes for Lasham 27 April 63 I have six unknown P2V-5 RCN which were among the mass of aircraft . Now I have no other records of if they were large sections or what but I have always been of the opinion that there were a number of nose sections of Neptunes present . A later visit in 1964 has a note of fifty five plus Sabres being there . It was a job to identify many of the aircraft as there may be a nose in one place and other parts in several other places . The Sea Hawks had tail sections chopped off so putting codes to serials was a problem . Anyway like the Coley Yard near Feltham , there will always be questions ! Chrisj Yes, the Sea Hawks were a problem but I was lucky enough to get round the store at Abbotsinch in 1962 when tails were still attached. In all I noted 47 Sea Hawks at Lasham (there were a few more at Church Crookham and some at Ascot). While most came from Abbotsinch, the first lot to arrive at Lasham were from Brawdy and appear to have started arriving in around December 1962. Those from Abbo started to arrive in March of 63 and continued to arrive until about October of that year. There were also Sea Venoms (mainly again from Abbo); Sea Furies (mainly from Dunsfold); Meteors (Lyneham); Hunters (Kemble); some maintenance frames from Arbroath; and a other few odds and ends like Vampire, Canberra and even a Dragonfly. The last arrivals in 1971 were Jet Provosts which had been broken up at Shawbury but most of these which went to Lasham were wings only though there were a few fuselages present. I also managed two trips around Coley's yard in Hounslow in the sixties which was a real treasure trove. Shudder to think what elf & safety would say now about us crawling through what were probably grossly unstable piles of aircraft, both civil and military (including Hurricanes which today would be worth a fortune, and bits of the Brabazon). On my last visit they were processing some of the TSR2s that were never completed. If my life ever flashes before me I'll put those days on freeze frame.
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Post by davebasing on May 4, 2018 21:43:45 GMT
Re Lasham and Dave B's notes on Sabres and others . In my notes for Lasham 27 April 63 I have six unknown P2V-5 RCN which were among the mass of aircraft . Now I have no other records of if they were large sections or what but I have always been of the opinion that there were a number of nose sections of Neptunes present . A later visit in 1964 has a note of fifty five plus Sabres being there . It was a job to identify many of the aircraft as there may be a nose in one place and other parts in several other places . The Sea Hawks had tail sections chopped off so putting codes to serials was a problem . Anyway like the Coley Yard near Feltham , there will always be questions ! Chrisj Just re-read your post and picked up on the Neptune sightings actually being in 1963. Trouble is that he Canadians didn't retire their Neptunes till 1968. I did check all the RAF Neptunes just in case but those that were not sold on to other forces ended their days in more northerly scrapyards. So the mystery remains.
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Post by graham on May 5, 2018 5:33:44 GMT
Thanks lads, great help. Thanks ZZ, that's the trouble when you have been using Excel, it presumably entered the old YEO date rather than last year's.
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Post by chrisj on May 5, 2018 7:57:09 GMT
Dave , Yes I too had concluded that Neptune sections were more probably X RAF rather than Canadian . Perhaps when it is published , the BARG dvd1 , may shed some light as BARG were originally from Blackbushe so more active in the area . Coley's was visited in 60s mainly on a sunday afternoon as that was a quiet time at LHR . Many of those noted were from panels which had serials on them but it could be that actual frame not present . It would be helpful to have a list but I feel those that visited have passed on literally or to other things . Chrisj
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Post by davebasing on May 5, 2018 10:38:58 GMT
Dave , Yes I too had concluded that Neptune sections were more probably X RAF rather than Canadian . Perhaps when it is published , the BARG dvd1 , may shed some light as BARG were originally from Blackbushe so more active in the area . Coley's was visited in 60s mainly on a sunday afternoon as that was a quiet time at LHR . Many of those noted were from panels which had serials on them but it could be that actual frame not present . It would be helpful to have a list but I feel those that visited have passed on literally or to other things . Chrisj It may be completely wide of the mark but I've found a record that Scottish Aviation at Prestwick (where all the RCAF fighters came from) carried out mods on 27 of the RAF Neptunes in 1955 & 1956. The aircraft were first delivered to the RAF with nose and tail gun turrets. SAL modified these by removing both turrets and replacing them with a perspex nose cone and a (longer) solid tail fairing. Although the bits would have been pretty small perhaps SAL hung on to these and included them in the sale of aircraft scrap to Staravia? Remains of some of the RAF Neptunes could still be seen in the yard at Failsworth (Unimetals) as late as 1976. The others went to yards at Forres (Aluminium Refiners) and Silloth (Lowton Metals). Feel free to send me a PM if you need any code tie ups for the Sea Hawks etc and I'll see what I can do. Enjoy the weekend. By the way I have the BARs going right back to that time but nothing re Neptunes.
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Post by chrisj on May 5, 2018 19:59:29 GMT
Dave , thanks for offer of tie ups . I think I have a fair few sorted but if I may , I would get back to you on that subject a little later . Rather like Graham I am in the process of sorting my logs/notes for the past fifty or so years as well as scanning all photos , slides and negatives to put onto disc ! So as you may gather , it may take a while to dig things out ! Thanks . Chrisj
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Post by graham on May 7, 2018 8:13:29 GMT
Morning all, some Russians that need tying up if anyone can help please. All reggies appear on the relevant Scramble show guide but do not feature on Planebase
Fairford 1984 - noted Russian AF TU-95 "23" and TU-142 "93"
Fairford 1993 - noted Russian AF TU-95 "20" plus IL-78 "34"
Fairford 1995 - noted 3 x MiL-24s of Royal Norwegian AF 702 703 709
Fairford 1997 - noted a pair of Russian AF SU-30s "52" and "54"
Fairford 2000 - noted Russian AF AN-30 "04"
A Spaniard, noted at Fairford 2000, an AS532 as "HU.21L-", I seem to have missed off the final digits
Fairford 1984, two Swedish Army Bo205s noted as 9203 and 9204, the Scramble report for this show has been "revised" and now only includes US and UK aircraft
And finally, the Ukrainians....
Fairford 1997 - 2 x SU-27s noted as "48" and "57"
Fairford 2000 - TU-22 noted as "80" AN-30 noted as "81" AN-72 noted as "608"
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Post by davebasing on May 7, 2018 13:06:43 GMT
Morning all, some Russians that need tying up if anyone can help please. All reggies appear on the relevant Scramble show guide but do not feature on Planebase Fairford 1984 - noted Russian AF TU-95 "23" and TU-142 "93" Fairford 1993 - noted Russian AF TU-95 "20" plus IL-78 "34" Fairford 1995 - noted 3 x MiL-24s of Royal Norwegian AF 702 703 709 Fairford 1997 - noted a pair of Russian AF SU-30s "52" and "54" Fairford 2000 - noted Russian AF AN-30 "04" A Spaniard, noted at Fairford 2000, an AS532 as "HU.21L-", I seem to have missed off the final digits Fairford 1984, two Swedish Army Bo205s noted as 9203 and 9204, the Scramble report for this show has been "revised" and now only includes US and UK aircraft And finally, the Ukrainians.... Fairford 1997 - 2 x SU-27s noted as "48" and "57" Fairford 2000 - TU-22 noted as "80" AN-30 noted as "81" AN-72 noted as "608" Fairford 1984 - noted Russian AF TU-95 "23" TU95MS c/n 34379 and TU-142 "93" c/n1603062 Fairford 1993 - noted Russian AF TU-95 "20" TU95MS c/n 34108 plus IL-78 "34" IL78 MIDAS c/n 10134044138 Fairford 1995 - noted 3 x MiL-24s of Royal Norwegian AF These were Czech AF Mi24D of 331 VRLT 702 0702 c/n M730702 703 0703 c/n M730703 709 0709 c/n M730709 Fairford 1997 - noted a pair of Russian AF SU-30s "52" c/n 1010301 and "54" c/n 1010203 Fairford (Cottesmore) 2000 - noted Russian AF AN-30 "04" c/n 0704 A Spaniard, noted at Fairford 2000, an AS532 as "HU.21L-", I seem to have missed off the final digits. Think you probably mean the RIAT at Cottesmore (in each 2000 case) where Spanish Army HU21L-51 an AS532UL Cougar c/n 2462 was present. Fairford 1984, two Swedish Army Bo205s noted as 9203 and 9204, the Scramble report for this show has been "revised" and now only includes US and UK aircraft – Think you mean 1994 when these two were present 09203 c/n 1753 and 09204 c/n 1754. And finally, the Ukrainians.... Fairford 1997 - 2 x SU-27s noted as "48" SU27A c/n 36911014411 and "57" SU27A c/n 36911031411 were both at Fairford 96 as well. Fairford (Cottesmore) 2000 - TU-22 noted as "80" TU22M3 Ukraine AF AN-30 noted as "81" AN30B Ukraine AF c/n 0609 AN-72 noted as "608" – no ideas on this or the c/n of the TU22 as I wasn’t actually there
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